Opponents say [Washington state] voters were persuaded at least partly because the initiative and its boosters exploited deep-seated prejudices and misunderstandings about transgender people to erode their rights.
blue WA didn’t vote for this. the chuds out in the hinterlands did. King County was overwhelmingly against this garbage.
This thread sure turned into a dumpster fire.
Forum users are famously bad at discussing nuanced topics. Anything that requires more thought than brainlessly taking the polarized stance leads to infighting.
We have weight classes for certain sports. Why not do that with everything?
There’s differences between lots of people. I have two coworkers who are both cis men but one is 6.5ft and the other is 5.7ft with probably 200lbs difference between them…
Why single out trans people? Why not just, you know, be more fair period if that’s the actual goal.
And then we don’t have to deal with creepy ass “prove your sex to me” bullshit.
So tired of how dumb and incompetent everyone is anymore…
Bring back intramural sports. You know, for fun, not so you can maybe get a scholarship.
If private equity hadn’t weaseled its way into all levels of kid’s sports and turned it into a way to become a millionaire people would have less of a problem about it.
I doubt you’d have enough kids to play in many categories. To super tall kid or the hefty kid are just SOL because you’d need a full team for them, and none exist.
The reason it works in wrestling is because that’s two people, total. You just need to find two people, one from either side, and you’re good to go. And either side can agree to fight outside their weight class.
But you’re never going to manage to do that with a full basketball league for instance, it just isn’t going to happen.
If you put weight classes on everything and remove women’s sports, at the same weight men are generally far more capable due to sex based differences. Women won’t be winning much anymore
Patently untrue, look up why women were excluded from playing in sports and then made to only play in child sized ‘womens sports’ leagues.
Men cannot handle losing to a woman in a sport, they throw giant goddamn tantrums when it threatens this kind of worldview. ( I lost, to a girl??)
Women are segregated into women’s leagues for the same reason black men were put in their own leagues, to prevent identity risk. (I lost, to a epithet??)
I hope this gets thrown out on the basis of sex discrimination
Sex != Gender
But gender is also a protected class.
So gender discrimination
Are there even any trans kids playing high school sports in Washington?? Cuz if not then all this did was inconvenience cis high school girls lol
“Sorry but Susie can’t play since she didn’t turn in her gender verification form on time”
I honestly dont know, but when I was in school boys got physicals to play sports. It was half the reason I didnt want to play school related sports. Did girls not have to do a similar thing? I’m not really sure why sports medicine has always felt sort of fucked up.
Girls already have to get physicals like guys do, the specifics can vary from state to state.
My understanding is the bill in Washington state that passed requires an additional/seperate process that ALL GIRLS must complete before participating.
I believe the estimate was 5-10 in the entire state. It’s simply more American culture war shite.
Trans rights are human rights and fuck anyone who disagrees.
Obviously trans people should have full rights and opportunities to participate in society in any way the rest of us can.
But beyond and aside from that, I will never understand why we have to act like sports are some sacred thing whose purity must be protected. It’s people playing with a ball. I genuinely can’t imagine why this issue has ever been anything other than “yes let whoever wants to play with the ball play with the ball.”
It is truly weird to me how we not only accept the sports cult, but literally never even scrutinize the field. It’s grown-ups playing children games; it’s definitely not that serious
But beyond and aside from that, I will never understand why we have to act like sports are some sacred thing whose purity must be protected. It’s people playing with a ball.
Because you’re not thinking big enough. The “trans sports” debate is literally just bigotry. Seriously, go watch the John Oliver piece on it. Every study that has ever been done has found that any advantage trans women and girls have disappears after a few years of hormone therapy. The athletic performance of trans women is well within the range of that of cis women. Believing trans women should be banned from women’s sports because they have an unfair advantage has no more scientific validity to it than the old racist beliefs that black athletes couldn’t compete fairly in white leagues. The science has been. The studies have been performed. Cis people just refuse to believe them. Their gut feelings outweigh science and our humanity.
People just vote based on bigotry. Even most liberal “allies” are awful at this. Most liberal allies just see trans women as drag queens, literal men in dresses, as if we don’t take medications that completely reshape our bodies on a biochemical level. Morons, even many moronic Democrats, just think “trans woman == man in dress,” and conclude that our sports performance must be closer to cis men than cis women. It’s just stereotypes and bigotry. That’s all this is.
And that’s the problem. Because once you’ve given into one form of irrational, unscientific bigotry, you have no reason to ever stop. If you won’t listen to the science when bigots say trans women have an unfair advantage in sports, you won’t listen to science when bigots say that trans women are a threat in women’s restrooms and locker rooms. If you don’t give a shit about science, you’ll have no problem caving to bigots who hand wring about trans kids receiving trans healthcare. It’s completely unscientific and bigoted to let a tiny minuscule regret rate influence your conclusion, but if you’ve abandoned science once, you’ll do it again.
As a trans person, I honestly do not give two shits about sports. But what I DO care about is the precedent it sets. There has never been a state that passed a trans sports ban through its legislature that then didn’t also go on to persecute trans people in numerous areas of life.
Think more than two seconds into the future.
Remember, Jim Crow was passed because white women didn’t “feel comfortable” sharing spaces with black women.
sports are some sacred thing whose purity must be protected
With that framing, I agree. But that’s a strawman. Most people don’t care for the romantic vision of a “pure” sport but rather, the general idea of keeping sports fair for kids. 1/2 the rules in all sports are about keeping things fair. Age buckets, weight ranges, gender, a system of leagues (ex varisty vs JV) to sort players on skill level, and so on.
So if you assume that there are biological differences between men and women that affect fairness within a competitive sport and if you feel those differences largely do not go away until after some form of medical transition and if you think sports are important in kids lives & keeping them fair is important - then you vote the way
blue WAdid.Agreed, even if trans people absolutely dominated in every sport they participated in, why does the government need to be involved beyond prohibiting discrimination? Let the various sports organizations determine the best way for everyone to be able to participate fairly. It certainly shouldn’t be a top issue with all the other problems in the world.
I don’t understand why we even have men and women leagues. Make an A league, a B league and a C league. If A League is 90% men for most sports and C league 90% women, so be it.
There are “biological” women who crush their respective sports and I don’t know why they are viewed differently than a trans women who does the same.
Lol you seriously just don’t get it do you.
Google about the time Serena and Venus Williams said they could beat any man outside the top 200. Remember they were ranked number 1 in women’s tennis and were absolutely crushing the women’s league back in 1998 when this happened.
They played a man who was number 203 and he absolutely smoked both of them. If you watch it you can tell he’s not even trying, something the Williams sisters even acknowledged in the interviews after. After that match, the Williams sisters, the best 2 players in women’s tennis went on record and said if they had to compete in the men’s league they didn’t even think they’d be able to place, and the level of competitive difference was ‘insane’. That’s straight from the mouths of the 2 best women in the world at their sport, and to this day the GOATed 2 competitors of their sport.
I’ve been involved in martial arts for almost 35 years now. I’ve been instructing for almost 20 of those years. I was professionally competitive back in the Pride days. I’ve trained with some of the best women fighters in the world, and none of them could beat me, and when I did I wasn’t even competitive or ranked. I’d even concede the fact that several of those women’s technique and form was better than mine. But the strength and speed differences are too great to be ignored. In the same weight class it’s not even competitive. I’ve given up 2 whole weight classes to women in practice before and it’s still not competitive. I can easily overpower women who are trained fighters who have almost 80lbs on me. The differences between a biological man and woman are insane.
Which brings me to the trans people in sports debate. I don’t think it’s fair at all for trans people to compete. A biological woman can be disqualified permanently for competing in virtually any league if it’s found she’s taken testosterone even once. Because testosterone creates PERMANENT changes to musculoskeletal mass. No amount of HRT can undo the differences in muscle mass and bone density that a person gets when he goes through puberty as a male. And as far as women who transition to men… they’re taking testosterone supplimentally and can too easily mask doping methods behind their HRT treatments. It’s far too easy for trans men athletes to cheat.
There are some crazy people out there who are saying that HRT should be over the counter and should be available to children because of this. Which is insane. First, I wouldn’t trust any life long decision I’dve ever made until I was around 22, and that might be being generous in retrospect. Second HRT has some serious side effects and should be an absolute last resort. I still think the attempt should be made to try and make someone comfortable in their own body and definitely need some psych approval before making such a life altering decision. And finally… you need to be out of puberty before you start playing around with major hormones like that. The teenage years are crazy enough with all that and you really want to pile on more? Why not force feed them LSD while you’re at it CIA style? I think it might be less mentally damaging.
Final note and it’s more a vent than anything. A trans supporter seriously told me that I’m transphobic because I said I wouldn’t date a trans person as I’d be uncomfortable with that. They took this to mean that I didn’t accept them as a woman fully, which on reflection is kinda true, on a sexual attraction level it would be hard for me to resolve mentally that this person who is now definitely a woman wasn’t once a man. I think it’s equally ridiculous that my sexual preferences can be dictated by others and if I’m uncomfortable with intimacy of that nature that somehow makes me a bigot, especially when I’ve gone out of my way to accommodate and support the trans community. I’ve always supported the gay community, even back in the 90s and early 2000s living in an area where… you just didn’t in those days. When a guy came out in our conservative school back in the day, I literally defended him, and went to bat at 5 to 1 odds. And no gay guy ever said I had to be on board with dating one of them to support the community.
And yes, despite being against trans people competing in sports and being uncomfortable with dating a trans person, I still consider myself to be a supporter of the community. I believe everyone has a right to be happy, and if that’s what it takes, go for it. And push comes to shove you’d better bet I’ll do what I can to protect a trans person should they need it, as I would stand up for any victim to any bully. Hopefully I’m not just branded ‘transphobic’ and seen as an enemy when I disagree with you on a few points.
I know people think we seperate men and women’s sports out of safety for women, but historically the reason was they just didn’t want women doing things (shocker i know). People just started thinking it was for “female safety”.
In their minds tho, it’s a man playing with women, which is a legitimate concern to them. Even people who think positively about trans people will cite that as their concern, just like you have.
Kind of insane thinking that not wanting to date a trans person makes you transphobic. Thats like getting upset a former slave owner doesn’t think positively about black people after slavery ended. Expecting people to suddenly wake up and feel differently about something is not a successful strategy.
People dont want to hear this because to flip sides quick, in THEIR minds, anything less than full trans support means you are actively calling for a trans genocide. And nothing can change THEIR minds either. Politicians love this. We will be stuck in an eternal tug of war where they will never have to address other issues and this one will never be resolved.
IMO the solution for now, which isnt fair to the trans community, would be that if you are trans then you give up competitive school sports. Intramural, YMCA, bar league, etc etc are still fine. You can still play, just not in competitive high school or college sports. And that would be a sacrifice each and every trans person would make.
Because the right celebrates they finally kept “those pesky trans kids” out of their sacred sports… and then what? Do you think they would want trans kids out of school altogether? Slippery slope fallacy style? I dont think they would get nearly as much support for that as they currently have for the sports topic.
Racism still exists but its gotten much better after the racists started dying off and younger kids saw skin color was not a reason to hate people. The same will happen with trans people. Right now its “weird” or “scary” for some people, but their kids will be a bit more open to it. Theres no way to speed this up. Sometimes we have to endure the circumstances of our time.
Dude separation of men and women’s events goes back to ancient Greece. The first olympics thousands of years ago was segregated by sex. Maybe Christo-fascists framed it that way but honestly it’s always been because pound for pound a woman just doesn’t compete with a man and it’s inherently not fair.
And yes seriously, I didn’t want to have a relationship with a trans person and multiple people labeled me as a transphobe over it which is totally not the case. I was friends with her before and after she transitioned and it was… weird for me and something I didn’t want. That to me was particularly insane, like, what more do you want from me?
I’m glad you at least have a sane and middle of the road thinking, and can see that there are at least levels to support.
We do not need to give in to fascist demands. The actual solution is to simply dismiss these concerns as rightfully inconsequential. It is the equivalent of politicans running on a policy of women’s volleyball uniforms.
You claim the slippery slope wouldn’t happen as you directly describe the slope you’d slip down. If any credence is given to the bullshit of, “trans folks should be banned from sports” then that will absolutely, 100% be used as reasoning to ban them from other parts of life.
Anti-social behavior like racism or sexism didn’t improve over time as old people naturally died off. The were actively defended and rights were directly fought for. What you describe as endurance is actually capitulation.
Then we can keep focusing the national spotlight on trans athletes for the next 20 years as nothing changes. I dont think anything will convice the “we should protect women in sports” crowd.
I know my solution is not fair to trans athletes, and if you want to frame it as “capitulation” you can. But if all trans people, as a group, decided they would no longer play competitive high school sports then that would be the end of the trans athlete debate, and anyone still pursuing it would be seen as a conspiracy theorist. And eventually people will get annoyed with them as they pass legislation that only hurts cis girls like that Washington state bill will. And maybe, eventually, people will begin to question what the big deal was in the first place, and FINALLY let trans kids play high school sports.
You can give ground without giving up entirely.
Convince them? We don’t need to do anything of the sort because these delusional freaks are a vocal minority. Most people don’t give a fuck about what trans people are doing. Instead of trying to convince the trans community to give up their right to free expression and bodily autonomy, why don’t we tell these anti-trans weirdos to fuck off?
Your idea is absurd. Abortion access is widely popular, should we try to convince women that they should give up their access to healthcare and bodily autonomy just to maybe get it back later because we have to appease the anti-choice crowd? Should we ask black people to give up their water fountain access because of a few people’s “legitimate concerns”? Should immigrants not be allowed to own pets to defuse the President’s claims that they eat cats and dogs?
These rights need to be defended because they are everyone’s rights. If it can be stripped away from a minority, it can be stripped away from everyone.
Yelling at people online will only alienate more people from the cause.
Have fun yelling though i guess, at least it makes you feel better im sure.
Cool anecdote or whatever, but just because you feel a certain way doesn’t change the facts. Study after study after study shows transgender athletes do not have any advatanges over their cisgender peers after long term HRT. If trans folks could easily cheat and gain an advantage, why aren’t they? It’s not like trans people are mystical elves who do no wrong; there are absolutely evil trans folks out there, so why aren’t they dominating sports leagues with their supposed inherent biological advantages? How come we just gotta hear about some whiny woman who tied for 5th place in a swim competition one time?
Nobody cares about what you think proper trans care should be because that’s a discussion that should be between a person and their doctor. If a doctor says the best treatment for folks is to do the macarena every morning, your opinion and feelings don’t matter on the subject. Transgender youth are mostly recommended puberty blockers which is a not a permanent treatment, but if they are being perscribed HRT then that is a decision that came into play after the patient discussed things with their doctor.
You wanna be an ally? That’s fine, but stop trying to drive the bus when you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about. The best thing you personally can do is to shut up and sit in the back.
Your own study that you just linked acknowledges a higher lean mass difference WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE MORE MUSCLE. The study says this doesn’t ‘necessarily automatically translate to greater athletic ability’ which personally I think is horseshit.
Nor does it address differences in musculo-skeletal mass. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/
It is absolute horseshit you think the science is squarely in your corner on this, because it most DEFINITELY isn’t.
What part of what I said above disagrees with you that this should be between a trans person and their doctor? That’s literally what I said. Unless consensus has changed post-puberty HRT is how they do things, blockers are used until puberty stops. There are advocates out there who are saying give the HRT and blockers OTC not understanding you can’t take both, and think that such a thing should be OTC and at the child’s decision alone which is INSANE.
Personally don’t plan on shutting up especially when you still haven’t addressed how you keep someone undergoing hormone treatments from beating doping in sports too. There are definitely issues with cheating already with the cis crowd, and it is actually much much easier for someone who’s taking hormones already to dope. Their levels can drop back down quicker during testing making it harder to detect cheating and steroid use.
Also it’s patently ridiculous to merge women’s and men’s leagues as Venus and Serena showed, and what my personal anecdote was about. Women can’t compete on the same level as men physically with sports. It’s ridiculous that Chess is separated by men and women’s leagues sure. But anything physical? You’re joking right? Or you’ve never done sports?
Again your feelings do not matter. The study I linked and the study you linked say the same thing. I’ve bolded the relevant text for the illiterate.
From my link, “While transgender women exhibited higher lean mass than cisgender women, their physical fitness was comparable. Current evidence is mostly low certainty and has heterogenous quality but does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.”
From your link, “While data are still scarce, the limited information available does not suggest that trans men and trans women have much, if any, athletic advantage post-transition. Indeed, in most cases they perform more similarly to those matching their gender identity, or somewhere between cis men and women.”
It doesn’t matter what you feel like the truth is. It doesn’t matter what you call horseshit because your words are not as reliable as the statements of doctors and researchers. Nobody cares that you’ve done your own research because you aren’t an expert if you obviously can’t read.
As for your argument about advocates of OTC, that’s a nice strawman to build up, but until I see doctors widely recommending over the counter HRT for trans youth to self medicate, it’s meaningless to get all pissy about it. It’s the equivalent of claiming, “Someone on Twitter told me they advocate for drunk driving so I think we should just ban cars all together.”
And I don’t know what should be done about sports, but that’s because I’m not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. It’s great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.
Again, hotly debated topic and even by their own results there ARE differences. Lean muscle mass IS greater in trans female athletes. Doping is easier to conceal in trans male athletes.
And I don’t know what should be done about sports, but that’s because I’m not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. It’s great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.
Bold assumption that I didn’t go to college and don’t have a bachelors in Exercise Science. I mean all I’ve ever wanted to do in life is train athletes lol.
But hey you can believe what you want and I’ll certainly continue believing what I do. I think your problem is largely that most sports at the moment, the sports medicine experts ARE advocating against trans athlete participation. The opinions of the researchers and scientists in those studies concluded that lean muscle mass doesn’t result in a competitive advantage. That is totally NOT the consensus of the field at large, and why people educated on the subject like myself are leery of the political impact on studies like this. Lean muscle mass as percentage of body weight remains the best predictor of physical ability. That’s not even addressing musculo-skeletal differences which deals with how muscle attaches to the skeleton or how muscle structurally forms, which IS different between the sexes, and unfortunately, presently HRT doesn’t affect, those differences persist regardless of puberty blockers present in prepubescence. So… tech has to get better to transition more completely.
Again, hotly debated topic and even by their own results there ARE differences.
So your best possible argument is “the evidence is inconclusive.”
THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE WE PERSECUTING A MINORITY GROUP WHEN THE BEST EVIDENCE YOU CAN HAVE IS “MAYBE THERE’S A TINY DIFFERENCE, IDK?”
Seriously. Listen to yourself. We’re talking about the civil rights of real human beings. That is NOT the kind of thing you fuck with unless you have an extremely serious reason to do so. Like, if after we let trans women play sports, suddenly we were dominating competitions left and right, obviously outperforming cis women in an unfair way.
The best shit you got is, “well, the evidence is inconclusive.”
It’s called innocent til proven fucking guilty. You don’t persecute people on a whim or a hunch.
The studies we both posted are reliable when you read them wrong and thought they agreed with you, but now they are unreliable when I point out you read them wrong and they disagree with you. What incredible judgement you’ve displayed. Your thoughts and ideas are really good and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and discussion boards where you and other “people educated on the subject” congregate. /s
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Hey buddy, I think you may have responded to the wrong person. I also know that the research says that transgender athletes exhibit no clear advantages from being trans.
I guess I just don’t understand why the biological difference between Muggsy Bogues and Shaq aren’t a problem and they can play in the same league but the difference between Joe and Mary are a problem. I see your viewpoint, it’s just that the way I see it sports have always been about biological differences - some sports already deal with this with things like weight classes, but for those that don’t, how can you justify Muggsy and Shaq in the same league while talking about unfair biological differences?
Again are you seriously suggesting we what? Merge the WNBA with the NBA? There would be no women players that could field against the male athletes dude, that’s the entire point.
Again, Venus and Serena the GOATed all time tennis players doubted they could compete in the top 1000 if the women’s league were merged with the men’s. Is that what you want? Women to get absolutely dominated by men all the time in sports? I can say it’d be huge for right winged men’s mental health and feeling superior I guess if nothing else.
I’m not suggesting anything at all except that sports are not so sacred that we need to literally legislate the issue at a government level for the same reason we don’t have laws about Candyland.
Apparently we do, and there are potentially millions of dollars in sports, and while fairness and equality may not be important to you they are to me, and trans people I feel violate that. I also believe in a sanctity of sports and place a high value on competition where we all agree on and can follow rules while doing something physical and having fun, I believe learning those skills are central to society.
and I don’t know why they are viewed differently than a trans women
Really? You really don’t know?
I wish people The Good Side were open to more nuanced conversations on this topic. There are many reasons why you could oppose trans athletes in girls sports that have nothing to do with transphobia but when that conversation is placed next to the foghorn of hate from The Bad Side, nuance dies.
Looks like you have unfortunately found people on “The Good Side” who are not open to nuanced conversations and live in perpetual echo chambers/cognitive dissonance
I happens literally every time.
There really isn’t a good reason except bigotry. The science is firm on this. Trans women are biologically female and have no advantage in sports over cis women.
Your problem is that you’re stuck on a bigoted assumption that “trans woman == man in a dress.”
Ah yes, the only possible reason anyone could oppose any possible aspect of any possible trans issue at all is if they are a transphobe. There is no reasonable opposition to any proposed trans issue at all theoretically ever even once at all ever. It’s always actually simply hate.
Good job. Have fun on my loser list.
What, exactly, are non-bigoted reasons you could oppose trans athletes specifically in girls sports?
I had a draft message that was basically “Before I bother, I want to make sure you engage in good faith. Can we agree on things like your DNA affects your hormones which effect you body development”, and a few other really really basic pillars that cannot be reasonably debated. I had to leave so left it as a draft…
But uh. In the other thread, you already claimed HRT takes full effect instantly in your
They do, actuallystatement. Also your stance implies a pre-18 start for HRT which is a whole other bucket of nuance. You already started nitpicking grammar like a 2012 internet troll. You already started accusing the other dude of feeding into the “Nazi agenda”. I just know that you are incapable of good faith discussion on a topic that is inherently touchy without letting your emotions take over.So I won’t bother engaging further, enjoy having the last word.
✅ Got called a right-wing nazi on Lemmy today
Genuinely hope their day/life gets better
Genuinely hope you stop being a nazi.
- there are some immutable biological differences between males and females. weight/height classes and hormones/blockers don’t make these differences go away.
- women and girls get fewer opportunities to succeed in sports, and letting a male take a spot from a female athlete is a form of bigotry and male supremacy.
- just let women and girls have something for ourselves for once? males want to get in all our spaces and don’t know how to take “no” for an answer
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What would you have to see to convince you that there are immutable biological differences between males and females? would an example change your mind?
Please don’t assume what I think, where I live, or my education level. (??? why ??)
And please don’t be rude. I’ve been on lemmy for years, and Feminism did not start on reddit and 4chan, LOL.
What would you have to see to convince you that there are immutable biological differences between males and females?
The struggle you’re having is that you don’t seem to realize that trans women are biologically female.
OHHHHHH okay 👍
Tap for spoiler
??? lmfao
Every time I see a trans person on the internet make an absolutely batshit crazy argument it makes me question the whole trans isn’t a mental illness thing.
What would you have to see to convince you that there are immutable biological differences between males and females? would an example change your mind?
Scientific studies that explicitly show that AMABs on HRT have some type of advantage over cis AFAB. They don’t exist in peer reviewed journals, but maybe I’m wrong. Go ahead. Find one. Two of the papers I linked are meta analyses.
Please don’t assume what I think, where I live, or my education level. (??? why ??)
I know what you think, because your moderation history and comment history are public on activitypub federated servers, and by god do you post a lot of bigoted bullshit to push your far-right nazi-inspired agenda. Seriously, you people, and I use that term loosely, need to be forcibly reeducated before you’re allowed to be out in public.
And please don’t be rude. I’ve been on lemmy for years, and Feminism did not start on reddit and 4chan, LOL.
Feminism did not. Trans-exclusionary Radical Feminism did. Because chipping away at the LGBT+ alliance fits the nazi agenda and it’s easier to start with the ‘weaker’ ones.
Trans people are why gay rights exist in the west. One would do well to remember that, if you want to claim to be a part of the “LGB.”
As a WA resident I would like to add:
“The largest donor to support Initiative 638, Brian Heywood, hedge fund manager and founder of Let’s Go Washington, the Political Action Committee (PAC) leading the campaign in support of Initiative 638, contributed about $2.23 million. … Supporters have received $7.74 million, while opponents have received about $2.16 million.” source
This fuck has a history of trying to control children: “The unprecedented initiative slate would … guarantee parents access to information on K-12 school curricula and school medical records.” source
He’s like our own state version of Elon Musk.
If we lived in a world where people really cared about girl’s and women’s sports, and fairness, this would be dealt with using science and logic.
The sex divisions in sports are really “dominant hormone” divisions. So anyone who has started puberty must be divided into the league with which their hormones align.
The studies say that a trans woman who has been at cis female levels of estrogen and testosterone for two years, has no advantage over a cis woman. That’s the criteria. Two years, then good luck.
It’s not hard.
Not even if gone through puberty and jidt has a bigger frame over all? The other thing I could see happening cause people love to chest is go off blockers till closet to the event.
Yes, even if the trans woman has a bigger frame from a testosterone puberty.
I appreciate that you brought this up, because it does look like a clear advantage. I understand why people assume it is an advantage. However, what the science has shown, is that it ends up being a slight disadvantage.
Estrogen changes organ function, muscle mass, skin thickness, and many other facets of a human body. It changes these even if you’ve had a testosterone puberty.
So, when a trans woman tries to move those heavier bones, she can not move them as fast as a cis woman, no matter what the trans woman does. Because her heart, lungs, muscle fibers, etc, those parts of her body cannot move the bones as fast any more.
Force = Mass x Velocity
A cis woman can reach a higher velocity in that equation than a trans woman. And so, she has more force. This means that a cis woman can throw a harder punch, she has a faster run, and a stronger tackle.
The trans woman cannot hit as hard, tackle as hard, or run as long or as fast, as a cis woman. This is what the science says and what testing has proven.
Think of it like two people swinging a bat. If one woman has a regular baseball bat, she can hit you hard, and it will hurt quite a lot. If another woman has a bat that is too heavy for her to swing easily, she will not hurt you as much. Even though the bat is heavier, if she can only swing it slowly, it will not hurt as much, and she will get tired of holding and swinging it, much faster.
As for your statement about cheating, what you are suggesting is no different than what cis women who want to cheat already do.
Testosterone is steroids. If a cis woman wants to cheat, she can indeed try as you say and take testosterone long before the event, but stop a few months before they test for steroids. A trans woman can do this to. The only difference is where they get their testosterone.
The same tests that can catch cis women, can catch trans women who cheat this way. Those tests are not perfect, and both women will still sometimes get away with cheating. But this is a problem that sports has, and it is not limited to trans women.
Kinda like weight classes?
These attempts happened in several states in parallel, it really appears coordinated rather than a coincidence.
Doesn’t seem like this should be the responsibility of government so much as the schools and the leagues they belong to. Why should everyone in the state get to decide as opposed to students and parents actually have to contend with the perceived issues?
Well, one obvious reason is transphobia and let’s not pretend that wasn’t the motivation for some voters. But the other reason for some is backlash. They see local schools and sport clubs that try to decide this on their own be accused of transphobia and pressured by loud minorities into a different decision, so they want to protect the communities from this harassment with state level rules, since small groups like schools are much easier to bully compared to the state.
I want to make clear that I support trans people participating in any recreational activity, I support their rights as much as anyone, and that this initiative throws a burden on all female children for the sake of a punishing a few, the competitiveness argument is totally based on assumptions and prejudice not backed by fact-based evidence, the issue is pushed by conservative culture war propagandists, and all that.
That all said, I don’t think most WA voters who voted for I-638 did so because they hate trans people, or think they shouldn’t exist as people. Hateful and spiteful people do exist but they are a minority. Rather, on this specific wedge issue, again based on flawed prejudice pushed by conservatives, opinions seem more to be framed around something similar to why 40 year olds can’t compete in an Over-50 bracket of a tournament.
I think many “normies” do not even have a good idea, what transpeople really are. They hear “trans” and “boys in girls’ sports”, and they are imagining a burly transvestite caricature with stubble wresting little girls, and not a twink femboy playing basketball.
I can at least understand the opposition argument on this one (unlike most other anti-trans initiatives). To them, a trans girl in highschool is just a boy who decided to call themself a girl. They don’t understand what would make someone want to do that - they just see the surface level, and that logically resolves to ‘A boy can say they’re trans to compete against girls’. I can see where they’d object to that. And purely from a competitiveness standpoint, one could argue that a trans girl who hasn’t started any hormone therapy or anything of the sort is, in effect, as physically capable as her male classmates.
And, yes - a boy who just wanted to appear to perform better at sports could in theory do that. It’s just that reasonable people tend not to want to pass legislation against an entire class of people because of the potential for a few bad actors. It’s like banning N95 masks because someone could wear one to hide their face during a robbery.
And purely from a competitiveness standpoint, one could argue that a trans girl who hasn’t started any hormone therapy or anything of the sort is, in effect, as physically capable as her male classmates.
Good thing that has never fucking happened. Every single league that allows trans women to compete with cis women has always required sufficient time on HRT to erase any advantages a male puberty might have brought.
But why focus on boys pretending to be girls and not girls pretending to be boys? Doesn’t that just point to the underlying misogyny and pedophilic instincts of the people wanting to inspect little girl genitals?
In the context of sports? Because the argument is that testosterone makes boys more physically capable and therefore provides an unfair advantage in sports when they’re competing against girls. Since trans boys typically don’t have the same levels of testosterone that biological boys do (particularly in high school, where they likely aren’t getting hormone therapy or haven’t been for long), in their eyes, a trans boy competing in boys’ sports would be at a disadvantage.
As a point of interest, in some states, a girl can choose to try out for the boys’ team if they want to, but I’m not aware of anywhere with gendered teams where a boy can try out for the girls’ team.
You said it better than I did.
Misogyny
Even trans women get classic misogyny.
I wasn’t eligible to vote for 638, but this nuanced take does a good job of describing around where I am. I’d prefer trans people are validated and can exist in society without fear or issue. Affirming care should be accessible and stigma-less
I also think natural testosterone production is a crazy-good steroid that improves muscular development. I’m not on board at all with the “checking under skirts” requirements of the bill but just feel uneasy with the nominal advantage of male puberty and it’s impact on women’s sports. This may get called ignorant, but until I’m asked for it, my opinion doesn’t matter at all, so I have some time. And I’m only chiming in here to add credence to rentlar’s take.
It’s an effective wedge issue, I’m glad that it mostly didn’t work as such, and it sucks that WA folks are going to be subject to the 638
but just feel uneasy with the nominal advantage of male puberty and it’s impact on women’s sports.
I might agree if trans atheletes dominated the sports, but they are not.
A good point. I certainly think if we start legislating people’s rights away it’s reasonable to ask “Is this actually a problem?” before proceeding.
I get it.
It’s not all that surprising. It’s something like an 80/20 issue. Rights are rights and I think most people are to that point, but things get a bit more wobbly about this specific issue. At least at this point in time. And that’s probably even before all the bad faith arguments coming from conservatives.
It’s probably why cons worked to put these kinds of things on ballots - a re-play of the Karl Rove tactic from years ago in order to drive more cons to the polls.
I think most people just are very confused about the idea of transgenderism and what it actually means, both to those who are transgender and for everyone else.
And the answer to this? Education.
You could round up all the people that don’t understand or agree and send them to reeducation camps
I think the issue is that, like it or not, we live in societies segregated by gender (bathrooms, prisons, sports, privileges, requirements) and the idea to just abandon all this doesn’t sit well with a lot of people, both on the right and on the left.
Or maybe people just want to keep their sports segregated and competitions protected? How many trans athletes breaking records is it going to take to realise they’re segregated for good reason
Are the record breaking trans athletes in the room with us? Please share who they are
Your proof is one article about a political stunt by a guy who doesnt identify as trans making a statement to discredit a trans athlete that transitioned with hormones and surgery 20 years before the event?
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protected from what, exactly?
So you think trans girls are girls?
Because biological males are better at sports than biological women and the majority of people including leftists see this as common sense
Unfortunately mother nature doesn’t actually care about us and doesn’t read our angry emails
And that’s why trans women belong in women’s sports. Biological women should play with other biological women. Trans women are literally biologically female. You’re just ignorant of trans medicine.
The majority of people also used to think it was common sense that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
Nothing gets past you
If it was so obvious, why did you choose to ignore it in your original comment?
Because it isn’t related to the topic at hand
You used “common sense” as evidence that your view was correct, yet you don’t think showing that common sense has historically been used as a means of oppression is relevant? Ok, sure
I didn’t say my view was correct. I explained why I think blue WA voted this way. To most people it IS common sense that men are physically more capable than women on average. Because for one, men hold the world records in every single sport, and by quite a lot.
Like I said, be mad at mother nature.
Which group of people most strongly support this ban? Female athletes lmao.
That no longer holds when comparing people actually receiving hrt for a period of time.
Be mad at science.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metres
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_swimming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_Strongest_Woman
Not seeing real results that back that up.
Did you just call me subhuman immediately after calling me a bigot? The jokes write themselves lol
They’re a dumb bot or maybe a human copy pasting the same BS response to everyone that posts this very rational perspective
The magnitude of sex differences increases as individuals mature (65). Adolescent and adult males and females show average differences in aerobic capacity, body composition, and strength (61). These are interrelated but will be addressed individually. As children grow and move through puberty, both sexes have increases in body size, although to a greater extent among males, leading to greater male average mass and height (62, 71).
During puberty, differences in body composition become apparent, with males having lower average body fat, and higher average muscle mass compared to age matched females (64, 72, 73). This difference in body composition leads to increasing strength and aerobic capacity to a greater extent among males than females (64, 74). Due to a greater proportion of lean mass to total body mass, males on average are able to produce greater force for their body size (75–77).
This can lead to advantages in sports where strength and power are valued (56, 78).
And that’s why trans women, as biological females, belong in women’s sports. Only a raging dumbass thinks trans women are biologically male.
I do know that reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit, otherwise you wouldn’t hold the views that you do, but do keep reading, and then read the sentence you quoted, and then keep reading, and follow that loop for a while.
I believe in you, champ.
I hate the way you engage with people here. I think you are just looking for an argument and you know the things you are saying are obvious bullshit. You like to call people bigots but you’re the only person here acting like one.
See, I called you a person even though I disagreed with you.
I hate the way you engage with people here.
I hate that transphobia is so ingrained in you people’s brains that even dems have to cater to you fucks.
I think you are just looking for an argument and you know the things you are saying are obvious bullshit. You like to call people bigots but you’re the only person here acting like one.
My view is backed by science, yours is backed by… bigots jerking themselves off.
Reading comprehension? Like noticing that I’m not even the same person you’re replying to?
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Yeah look I’m sorry but there’s not a biologist on earth who would agree with this. Saying that biological males don’t have a physiological advantage in strength based sports is just pure delusion.
Trans people deserve all the same rights and respect as anyone else, and I will fight for that. But if you’re going to say “red is blue and blue is red and science agrees with me” then no, I’m not going to indulge in that delusion
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