What’s the point of communicating if you know that you’re being misunderstood?

This is a public forum, I’m not necessarily responding for them.

It’s not about reading comprehension, it’s about frame coherence.

And when they’re unwilling to stop and comprehend that’s a them problem. Just like it was my problem when I did the same thing to @Souvenir@lemmy.dbzer0.com in that conversation.

But yes, frame coherence is a problem. its why these people annoy me so much they dont contextualize at all. voting patterns need to vary based on region. you can just be blasting ‘you must vote for dems!’ that’s entirely self defeating over the long term given their platform of being anti-worker, and its exactly what got us into this mess.

Hell voting patterns need to vary based on the position and the current makeup of the body.

Alright back from yoga, I’ll stop treating you like a liberal, you were speaking enough like one I really didnt bother paying attention to you.

Back to that again. Didn’t happen.

Yes, it did happen. Truly curious what did you think you were saying when you espoused this french phrase if not ‘vote for the lesser evil’, unless something was lost in translation and the french considered both equally bad during the period the phase was coined?

You’ll forgive me if the translation lost your meaning… Maybe now you’ll see where the confusion came from. I apologize for not picking up on it sooner. I really wasnt paying much attention to you.

In French they say “Choisir entre la peste et le choléra”. Choosing between plague or cholera.

Sadly france is probably already fucked. I do wish you well but seriously Macron is your version of joe biden/HRC. One thing you guys do have going for you is you dont have to deal with FPTP two party system on top of everything else.

If you tried to fight your way out of a cardboard box, you’d probably end arguing with the instruction manual…

Probably. I just havent really been paying attention to these threads. nothing interesting has been said.

Don’t think we need your help fighting international fascism.

laugh Thankfully you dont need to like me to use the tools I’ve been building dealing with trump here if you end up at the point where le pen has power.

suddenly when asked to show your work you stop responding huh? thought so.

oh, suddenly when the answer to the premise doesnt match the nonsense position you’re suddenly incapable of responding. No, now I want you to continue. you need to learn what the fuck you’re doing when you espouse voting for the ‘least terrible candidate’. do you think we are joking when we say ‘scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds’?

I could break this down mathematically how ‘vote for the least terrible candidate’ results in worse outcomes across the board over time but I doubt you have the masters/PHD in mathemetics to follow it. Voting ‘least terrible’ is a position promoted by capital to slow down societal change and 99% of you dont even know it.

But the fact is you weren’t here to understand, you were here to try and correct the poor misguided anarchists who have been fighting against fascism for generations.

You are sullied if you vote for the establishment candidate, perpetuating the current status quo.

correct.

You are sullied if you don’t vote against the fascist. Choisir entre la peste et le choléra, as I said above.

Correct, both le pen and macron’s parties are fascist. you’re finally making progress!

You didn’t read my comment properly. If you had read my comment, you would have gathered I voted for neither Biden or Trump, as I am not American.

I did. I know you’re not american. trump is a an example. are you mentally capable of abstraction? have you passed algebra? If not we should stop here since you dont have the capability to continue.

It’s a poor analogy, but maybe I can rescue it.

No, you can’t because it was intentionally a poor analogy, but you’ve agreed with the premise that you’re not morally responsible for the actions of another individual, in the most basic of situations.

The next step is to move to a situation where two people directly call you simultaneously asking for you to come get them before their partner beats them (Partner A: Le Pen v Partner B: Macron). Unfortunately you’re at another friends house and cannot drive to either fast enough to get to either of them in time. are you morally responsible for the resulting beatings these individuals receive from their partners?

I notice you didn’t answer my question about if Rosa Luxemburg would have voted against the Nazis had she been alive to do so. I find that telling.

You find it telling because you’re repeating the same mistake you have this entire conversation with me. Thinking you’re capable of convincing me to vote for your shit candidates out of fear, and that you have nothing to learn here about how your voting pattern has lead to the very situation you’re now desperately trying to correct by… doing the exact same thing that got everyone into this mess.

I didnt respond regarding rosa luxemburg because the answer is immaterial and the answer on what I’d do is very evident in my responses to people so what ‘rosa luxemburg would do’ has zero relevance to the conversation since QED: she isnt me. You’re trying to use hero worship and an appeal to an authority to make your case, which is not how I view rosa luxemburg and if you understood anything about anarchists you wouldnt make this mistake.

I didn’t shame you for not voting, I simply pointed out that not voting(not choosing) is also a choice and not necessarily a morally pure choice, especially when faced with fascists.

You’ve absolutely been attempting to shame people. That’s your whole drive with the ‘morally pure’ concept to begin with. a concept I’ve never subscribed to in the first place. you’re simply trying to assert positions onto me that I dont hold. I’ll repeat the point clearly again for you: ‘An individual is not responsible for the actions of candidate A through not voting for candidate B’. I dont get sullied because trump is an utter cunt. I am sullied for the vote I gave biden who was also an utter cunt.

I never said I was morally absolved purely by not voting, I said I’m not morally responsible of the actions of the person whom I didnt vote for, and if I was declaring abstaining from voting altogether, which i never have, then maybe you’d have a case. but since its not, and I do vote when the candidate is actually useful it doesnt apply. If you want people to blame for fascism look to the people voting for the fascists (cough you, lesser evil every day individual, via voting for the fascist wing of the democratic party and whom have been enabling the republican party since 1996 and longer cough)

When someone beats their partner 3 towns over are you responsible through the fact you were watching tv that night despite you knowing that the person was violent? No, of course not.

I’m done hand feeding people, you want my help for comprehension demonstrate some critical thinking on your end. feel free to respond to this with a analysis of what happens in various situations when voting for candidates and add where you’re confused and I’ll address your questions. otherwise shrug its a you problem and I’m done playing games with people who just mouth breath talking points and their personal fears at me.

Welcome back to school I guess, remember show your work.

Reading comprehension on their end isnt my problem to solve. They are either incapable or unwilling to comprehend.

Sincerely, no one has been able to explain to me how the slightly-less-bad candidate losing provides any benefit whatsoever.

sounds like a you problem. I’ve addressed this literal question repeatedly.

yes and? dunces keep making it about me. so I’m making it very clear on where i stand regardless. but the generality of the conversation has nothing to do with me. learn to separate issues. the fact they can’t separate my personal views from why not voting isnt the same as consent isnt my problem.

With holding your vote is a far more effective way to exert control. its that simple. corpo dems and repubs know very well what policies workers want and how to implement them they choose not to.

Or you can not vote, and risk a Le Pen victory, and even closer ties to Israel. You’re doing what the Israelis want you to (not) do. You not voting, is an implied ok, you’re not going to do anything to stop them.

Everything about this sentence is incorrect. Not voting is not an implied ‘fine with the outcome regardless’. As I’ve literally been pointing out since my first comment in this thread. people like you keep trying to assert it is. but it simply isnt and no amount of blathering on your end will make it so.

Do you think Rosa Luxemburg would have abstained from voting against the Nazis, because the other German political parties were corrupt and inept?

liberals literally like worshipping idols. the quote was to make you think. because clearly you are not. in your world there is only one method to deal with the problem in mine there are many.

I’m saying it’s not a morally pure choice. Your hands aren’t clean either way.

An Individual who is not involved is not responsible for the actions of others. Not voting for a terrible candidate is in no way supporting them, see above about your blathering. the only peoples whose hands are dirty are the individuals who voted for the candidate who won. The only dirt on my hands was tossing biden a vote in 2020 thinking they’d be reasonable re: wouldnt enable/support a fucking genocide (technically that admin lost it soon as they broke the rail strike). turned out they were not. my support was immediately rescinded.

But I don’t think we get to not choose.

You always have a choice. The world is wider than elections. You have plenty of options on the table for resisting trump/le pen, withhold your labor, use your labor to fund others withholding theirs. support general strikes. you dont need to vote in the election in order to resist if the candidates are terrible.

Now since you’re repeating talking points I’ve already addressed repeatedly with you and others, being utterly uninteresting, and breaking rule 7. disengage.

Here’s the thing though, you could argue that voting in favour of brexit, would have emboldened the centrists and the establishment in the UK, to keep making the lives of the working class worse. Brexit gave them a much necessary bloody nose.

I dont worry about how other people will interpret my actions. its not a useful benchmark for decision making.

The propaganda will tell people Macron’s successor is a neo-liberal thief and part of why France is in deep trouble…

Is macron’s successor literally enabling a genocide like harris did? These are not either or questions. you need to look at what candidates are doing. I tossed my vote for biden in 2020 even though i didnt like him. He decided to start a genocide. he lost my support. harris continued to support the genocide. she also lost my support. Now you have the dems in absolute turmoil and progressives are sweeping up this primary. It’ll unfortunately take a few more cycles for this to complete.

You worry too much about what the candidate will do vs what they are doing and you’re trying to prevent candidate A from acting by supporting candidate B even though you also dont like candidate B.

As a result you explicitly are condoning candidate B’s actions. By not taking away your vote/support you are directly responsible for their actions. You also enable them to claim ‘that only they, the center, can win’ because you are unwilling to withhold your support. You’re literally a hostage.

On top of that by supporting candidate B regardless of their actions because of your fear of candidate A you make it more difficult to remove candidate B and replace them with a better option.

Sound familiar? its the rachette effect. Stop supporting candidate B and suddenly you have room to replace them. Withholding your vote is one of the most effective tools for electoral change outside of general strikes.

Im not going to join you or condone your support of ‘lesser evil’ because it makes the tail of this situation longer and worse. And I’m going to call it out for what it is: An Ineffective reaction to fear. It in fact is a direct source of the situation we’re in now in the states because its been going on for so long that all the guard rails have fallen and all you have left are… the very people enabling the situation.

Now, I respect your individual choice, its just a bad one if you actually want change. One option you have is to split your ticket: vote against le pen but dont vote in any of macron’s party otherwise.

I’m going to leave you with a quote:

Rosa Luxemburg: ‘Those who dont move, do not notice their chains’

Now please move. ;)

Stay awhile. Nothing clears up confusion like immersing oneself. @butwhyishischinabook@anarchist.nexus is broadly on point.

left / right whats the difference. not my problem you dont agree/understand what im telling you.

I apologize I didnt mean you ignore you.

Would you have voted in that referendum?

yes, and I would have voted against brexit. just like i actively engage in activities that prevent isreali from murdering palestinians.

Classifying shit as propaganda isnt useful. its basically just the dissemination of information at its core good or bad.

The reason activities like cambridge analytica work is because the information is often true and verifiable. We have a long history of moderate dems never delivering on workers interest by always having just enough votes not to.

The only way to get it to not work is for the democrats to start fucking delivering to the working class. but that wont happen until your remove the corporate mouth pieces.

Kamala never would have lost if she came out hard for workers and gaza. instead she gave us… drumroll legalized weed. something 80% of the population already has.

I dont vote for genocide however you wish to classify the scope as more or less.

My dad is worse than your dad! I Never said it was a tough choice. just that my choice is not to vote for either shit pile. you’re free to continue voting for whatever idiot you want to. I’ll occassional toss my vote in when it offers material change on the ground. if it doesnt, then i wont.

Here is a list of things that will get that check box:

• candidate needs to full throatedly support single payer.
• candidate needs to shut their whore mouths about ‘supporting {minority group} is costing us the elections!’
• full throated prolabour positions: minimum paid / sick leave / paternity leave / living wage automatic inflation adjustments / forcing companies to bring labor position back or UBI.
• full throated support for monopoly busting.

I’ll take any one of those bullet points and I’ll be arsed to roll out of bed for your candidate. There are other things as well but I dont think an exhaustive list is necessary.

laugh hey bud. =) wondered when you’d check back in to sweep up the fishies.

Best get on removing those shitty dems then now.

1. Stop voting for shit stain moderate dems entirely general/primary or otherwise.
2. organize locally for someone / run for office yourself. <— you’re failing here.

falling for db0’s click bait isnt effective use of your time. unfortunately if your local area failed on 1 & 2 you’re semi stuck for this cycle and do whats in your best interest this cycle. stop looking to others.